Forgot to say, this is my first build too, but you probably know that.| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
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| best glue for first guitar http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15229 |
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| Author: | Heath Blair [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:42 pm ] |
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i think ive pretty much ruled out hide glue for my first build, seeing as ive never worked with it at all. is titebond just the easiest most sure fire way for a first timer? fish glue? lmi white? what would you recommend? |
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| Author: | Allen McFarlen [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:42 pm ] |
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My first guitar was built totally with Titebond original. Pretty easy to use. I switched to using hide glue for all the bracing, liners and blocks. It really isn't hard to use. Just different, and takes some planning. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:12 pm ] |
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Tightbond on my first ones, LMI white after that. I really like LMI. It drys hard and crystalline, and I have had no glue related failures so far. I'm just getting into HHG now but if I was starting out I'd use LMI. Terry |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:23 pm ] |
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I've started with LMI white then LV fish. I prefer the fish but I'd keep some white too for some tasks. They work about the same. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:40 am ] |
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My first guitar was my first serious woodworking experience aside from home style 2x4 building projects. I took the time to learn how to use HHG from the beginning and never regretted the decision. Practice on scrap and gain some confidence. As a matter of fact, practice on scrap and gain confidence with any glue you choose. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:25 am ] |
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Thousands of guitars are built with PVA like Titebond Original each year and do just fine. For a first guitar it is a good choice. But I might also suggest Fish glue. you get the open time of PVA but the crystalline cure similar to hide glue. But not quit as heat and moisture resistant as hide glue but closer then most will admit to. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:33 am ] |
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Titebond is great - we are fortunate to have this glue available to us. LMI is probably even better but it has a shelf life of 6 months so either resupply during the building if it takes you a while or build faster. HHG, Fish glue, epoxy, and CA are also great when used where it makes sense to do so and if you have the application methodologies down. Even some of the top Luthiers use Titebond today. |
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| Author: | Wes McMillian [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:38 am ] |
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There is nothing particularly wrong with Titebond, many very good instruments have been built - and are currently being built - by some very well known luthiers with the stuff. However, having said that, I chose the same route as JJ starting with my very first build. Figured if I was serious about doing this stuff and doing it right I might as well learn to use HHG right from the start. Thinking was, I'd eliminate that learning curve early while I'm making the rest of my mistakes and I won't have to relearn it later! Actually, I found out that HHG really is easy to prepare and use if you follow the advice of the guys here (and Frank Ford) and I've never regretted the choice. Either way, you can make good instruments. Just jump in and get your feet wet, hone your craftsmanship, and don't be afraid to stretch yourself a little. If HHG makes you uncomfortable right now, try it down the road. You won't regret it! |
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| Author: | Wes McMillian [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:39 am ] |
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I see JJ changed his avatar while I was posting. I like it! |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:41 am ] |
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I would go with Titebond or LMI white for a first guitar. Then on later guitars intriduce HHG for certain joints. |
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| Author: | Dave Anderson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:49 am ] |
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I'm all for hide glue but on the first couple I would probably go with Titebond or LMI white and then move to hide after you are more familiar with the assembly. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:50 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Hesh] Even some of the top Luthiers use Titebond today. [/QUOTE] True...but ALL of the top builders from 75 years ago used HHG. ...and what is it about the sound of those old guitars that captivates builders today? It could be in the woods that were used...it could be the age factor...it could be the glues that were used. But it's probably a result of a combination of a lot of those as well as other factors. Even Martin has now decided to produce a specialty line using HHG...a marketing ploy for sure. I just don't know why the first approach is always to scare the begeebers out of a 1st time builder into avoiding a major historically important and high quality glue that has an important place in the history of guitar building. So if it is considered by many to be the best glue for guitar building, I'll say it's also the best glue for a first guitar as well. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:14 am ] |
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[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] I just don't know why the first approach is always to scare the begeebers out of a 1st time builder into avoiding a major historically important and high quality glue that has an important place in the history of guitar building. So if it is considered by many to be the best glue for guitar building, I'll say it's also the best glue for a first guitar as well. [/QUOTE] JJ I have to respectfully disagree with you here. It is not a matter of scaring the begeebers out of a newbie. but rather and understanding that this newbie is by him self and is more likely to be successful in his first attempt if he has the open time to re-arrange things. I can tell you my first few times through, despite several dry runs I had alignment issues that open time of PVA allowed me to correct with out having to heat the joint and separate with a seam knife. My guess is you can think back on similar situations when you first started. It not a mater of scaring someone off of HHG's short open time. It is a mater of offering insight to provide the newbie with the best chance of achieving a good alignment their first time out the gate. If they had and experience hand with them then by all means learn to use HHG as soon as possible. But the question as Wat is the best glue for a newie to use. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:24 am ] |
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For what it's worth, I have used HHG, Fish Glue, Titebond, LMI white, and Bordens White Wood glue on mine. Different glued for different things. I really like HHG, and don't find it to be intimidating at all. You just have to be ready to go, and not fiddle with your joint. I'll probably use Fish on difficult joints like lining, tops & backs etc. My only glue failure so far was with LMI White. Ruined a Headstock veneer glue up. Probably was my fault, but made me mad, so I blamed the glue. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:26 am ] |
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| Forgot to say, this is my first build too, but you probably know that. |
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| Author: | Wayne Clark [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:38 am ] |
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Waddy, I missed the story of the messed up headstock veneer. I am trying the LMI glue for the first time. Is there anything I need to watch out for? |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:48 am ] |
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I don't know what happened. I layered maple veneer, walnut veneer, and topped it off with Zebrawood, and using Plywood gluing cauls with tape on them, Quick Grip clamps, and a couple of heavy spring clamps. When I took off the clamps, I could tell the glue didn't hold around the edges. I might have clamped too tight, or not had enough glue, though I had pretty good squeeze-out. I don't know. Then, I had a terrible time getting it to release, using an iron and a hot knife. Thought I was going to ruin my headpiece on the neck. Like I say, it was probably my fault. I think the LMI White is almost harder to use than HHG. When you spread it out on a surface, it wants to dry very fast, it seems to me. Much harder to use than Titebond, except that Titebond acts like grease when you are trying to clamp two flat surfaces. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:50 am ] |
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JJ bro - Now there you go again...............  HHG is NOT the easiest glue to use for a beginner and a beginner has so very many new things to learn that adding one more thing to the mix is not a good idea in my view. Remember I am the schmuck who posted a tutorial here encouraging people to try and use HHG. I am an advocate of HHG use but I always qualify this with the statement - where it makes sense to do so....... The question here, in this tread, is what it the best glue for a first guitar. And the real answer is that there is no single best glue for a first guitar nor will the builder be able to do everything with one single glue - any glue. Of course one glue could be used for everything but this would clearly not be a best practice and I am sure that you would agree with this. Titebond/LMI are much easier to use where time is needed for clamping, positioning etc. It's also arguable that a guitar that was built with HHG will sound better then a guitar built with Titebond although I agree that it would. So why make it more difficult for a newb? Why add 15 second clamping times to operations such as gluing the blocks, installing kerfed linings, attaching a top or back, gluing a fret board? This makes no sense and in some cases, the fret board, any water based glue like HHG, Titebond, Fish glue is problematic. I actually would favor Fish glue over HHG for a beginner if Titebond was not the first choice for some reason. Fish glue has long open times even though it is more difficult to clean up. Here is what I use and what I use it for. And, for now, this is what I believe to be the best glues to use for the specific operations. joining plates: HHG, Fish glue, Titebond/LMI gluing braces: HHG, Fish glue, Titebond/LMI gluing blocks: Titebond/LMI installing rosettes (wood): Titebond/LMI attaching backs/tops: Fish glue, Titebond/LMI gluing fret boards: West Systems epoxy head plates: Titebond bridges: HHG, Titebond/LMI side markers: CA bindings and purfs (wood): Titebond You can see that Titebond can be used for nearly the entire guitar. Clearly HHG dries harder and IMHO is sonically superior but I consider it probably to be a myth that anyone could actually hear the difference between braces glued on with Titebond or HHG. I use HHG for braces because I like working with it in this application and I appreciate the easy clean up. I am also hopeful that it will sound better too but there is no way that I could prove that it actually does. To me it's more important that a beginner has a "successful" and enjoyable experience building that first guitar. With this said the "easy button" is important. Time and time again I see folks on this forum and others provide advice that I consider more a case of an advanced or intermediate builder sticking out their chest and exclaiming how wonderful their chops are........ But is how you or I do things always the answer for a beginner? I don't think so. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:55 am ] |
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Michael...you're absolutely correct in everything you say. And I had lots of problems as well...compounded by the fact that I had never done any critical woodworking projects. Hey...who am I to question you and other pros who make quality guitars and actually get paid for the effort! The mistakes I made are laughable as I look back now. But as far as using HHG, I was able to learn a lot also about how to correct those errors and re-do joints properly and prepare surfaces better and devise clamping schemes and build effective jigs and cauls for any gluing operation. The main thing I learned that may not be necessary for others with more experience was to plan properly, go slowly and be patient. I also learned not to fear the unknown and to embrace change if it was worth the effort. I believe that a decision has to be made by each individual whether they are a beginner or an old-fart woodworker based on each person's personality and their tolerance for risk taking. My approach and advice is for those who are as inclined as I to take calculated risks based on the potential benefits. It was the right decision for me but it may not be so for others. For those who are so inclined, I offer my experience as an example of what is possible. Had I listened to 90% of the experts 5 years ago, I could easily have become comfortable in using other glues and may never have stretched myself to move out of that comfort zone. In retrospect, using HHG wasn't all that difficult. And I'll repeat...if it is too stressful then it's not worth it...this should be fun so use whatever suits you. Now...I wonder how long it will take for me to embrace the use of the Lancelot in neck building! Now that's what I call scary and stressful...for now! 
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:57 am ] |
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Waddy, I had a similar White problem adding a bridge patch. After removing the gobars, Ive found the corners had gaps. Cleaned up everything redo more gaps in different places  So I ditched the patch ideea all together. Torres did not need patches anyway But for head and neck work, it was perfect. The stack, head and plate joints turned out all great with an invisible glue line. On my first guitar its the neck joinery that I am most proud with. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:59 am ] |
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Well, I don't know about that. I am definitely a beginner, and decided as a beginner, I should learn as much as possible on my first build, and that includes the use of different glues. My discovery is that I don't find HHG intimidating at all. Maybe if I were trying to glue a top on, I would have a different opinion, but I plan on using Fish Glue for that. If you don't find out what you are comfortable with, you'll waste a lot of time experimenting on your second and third builds, doing that. Of course that is just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:00 am ] |
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Boy, I took a long time typing. Hesh, that was in response to your post. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:04 am ] |
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What JJ said. For me, my first is an adventure and a learning experience. I want to learn as much as possible. That's why I chose the full immersion approach. It's also why it is taking me so long. Dry runs, different approaches, trying some things more than one way, it's all part of the education. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:08 am ] |
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I'll add that when Sir Edmund HILLARY..... conquered Everest it was not his first climb...........
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| Author: | Dave White [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:10 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Hesh] Clearly HHG dries harder and IMHO is sonically superior but I consider it probably to be a myth that anyone could actually hear the difference between braces glued on with Titebond or HHG.[/QUOTE] Hesh, Well if you relate it to the biggest top brace - the bridge - I don't think it's a myth. I was a sceptic at first thinking that builders switched to hhg at a certain point in their "learning curve" and it was this that gave the better sound with hhg. I remember asking Tim McKnight on this forum if the sound change was instant on switching to hhg and he said it was. Well .. he was right as I heard it too - or maybe it's a case of Howard K's "Psychoacoustics". Perhaps the best advice to give to a beginner is get all of the glues and lots of scrap wood an spend lots of time before you build a real guitar gluing up scraps getting to know the glues, clamping procedures and clean-up techniques. Also spend time taking the glue joints apart and re-gluing. It's all going to depend on the skill levels and confidence of each beginner - every one will be different. If there had been the OLF in it's current state when I started out building then I would have used hhg and fish glue predominantly from the start. In terms of alignment issues, hhg is not that bad really - if you notice them after the glue has started to gel then it's easy to pull the joint apart, scrape/wash off the hhg and start again. In someways it's an advantage as the initial hhg has "sized" the joint. If the alignment issue is after the glue has set then in terms of heat and release a hhg joint is going to be as easy/hard to release as a Titebond/LMI one. |
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